WTF? Transsexuals Hating on Transgenders

Posted: August 26, 2009 in Troll Wars

When I see transsexual activists bashing Subversivism and Transgressivism. I feel like an implicit target of their attacks, because I am a no-hormone (NoHo), no electrolysis (NoElectro) somatically male trans person. Not removing the facial hair I was born might be labeled as subversivism, but Low Modification (LoMod) transgenders should not be “othered” for our body modification choices.

I am perhaps sensitive on this issue because there are parts of the blogosphere where militant, anti-transgender transexuals “other” us and bash us continually. This transgender resentment seeps into the comment sections of mainstream trans blogs too. I would argue that transgressivism-bashing is the socially acceptable face of transgender-resentment.

Transgender bashing here

It is an act of coercive political violence for the transgenderists to dictate terms to us women. I don’t like men pushing me around, and those who “identify” as transgender retain their male privilege, albeit in a reduced capacity with regard other men. They may say they don’t have privilege, but everything they do gives the lie to that.

Men need to shut up and piss off when it comes to women’s issues. I don’t respect transgender opinions about things that concern women. Male aggression towards women has a distinct smell to society, and when the public sees the real transsexual women speaking out against the transgender lie, that will be the deathknell for that bit of post modernism.

here

The TG like all men see the world in terms of heirachy. Essentially they are crossdressers, transvestites who don’t like that label so went looking up the ladder for transsexual, now they think they’ve erased that they have their sights set on intersex. Just watch as Autumn Sandeen leads the charge when he lies about his Kleinfelters test results and the mob follows suit.
The TG wear these labels like fashion statements. They don’t care who they hurt, like all men they will seek to dominate and take up space, our space. OH no, not a second time, this time we resist.

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Comments
  1. Kara Harkins says:

    As you might expect, Aria speaks for a VERY small minority of transsexuals. Ones that can not use logic as well: I find her railing against heirarchies while creating one pure comedy gold.

    It is based out of the old way to transition: one path, hierarchies, go stealth after transition, second wave feminism, and all sorts of other junk that people still suffer from.

    Sad.

  2. Jasper Gregory says:

    This stuff is pretty upsetting. Calling transwomen men because they are No-Op is outrageous. Does Aria represent an HBS viewpoint?

  3. ariablue says:

    Kara is quite wrong. The majority viewpoint among those who were born with the transsexual syndrome is not as she claims, and she can not possibly make that statement with a straight face. The perhaps 100,000 transsexuals in the US are most definitely not represented by a handful of loud militant transgender politicians.

    There are two kinds of people I am speaking about when I say “transgender” in my writing.

    1) Men who pose as transgender to access services meant for transsexual women, and use the law to gain access to women’s space. They are frequent predators in groups that once were meant to support us.

    2) Those who would force all transsexual men and women into a political construct against our will.

    Beyond that, I have no interest in the rest of the people who identify themselves as TG. I think freedom of expression is an important right.

    Kara misrepresents the situation, though she may be laboring under the delusion that TG-type transsexuals are the norm. They are not.

    It is a tiny minority of internet-based transgender who make these claims, but in fact their number is dwarfed by the tens of thousands of real transsexual men and women who have nothing to do with the TG construct and who have simply fixed their birth defect and moved on with life.

    No I am not “HBS”. That is a label war and completely misses the point, on purpose I believe. The truth is that there are *real* transsexual men and women out there who object to the redefinition of their birth condition to mean anyone who plays with gender. Transsexual is not crossdressing.

    I am not calling all transgender people men, that is a blatant misrepresentation. I simply state that there are those among the transgender crowd who do not *themselves* identify as women, who seek to redefine women in their own image. They themselves never say “I am a woman”. These people do equal violence to the concept of self-definition for the other very diverse people that are forced under the TG monolith as well. I feel that those who go along with this corrosion of self unknowingly are being used.

    Once again, the transsexual condition is one of birth. It knows no hierarchy and is not defined by how it is treated. Those are the common lies by the hardcore trangender political types who demand the power to tell us who we are. They attempt to turn the truth on its head. They are anti-feminist misogynists who cynically try to redefine woman through attacking people born transsexual.

    And we won’t tolerate that abuse any more.

  4. ariablue says:

    Also, that second paragraph was not written by me. I have not called anyone “he” who identifies themselves by “she”. I don’t find that sort of tit-for-tat helpful when trying to straighten this mess out. Though I can certainly see why people who know someone personally might choose to address them that way.

  5. Joanne says:

    Aria represents a viewpoint that, whether Kara or you like it or not, is a growing storm!

    There is no one HBS viewpoint. This storm goes by many names: classical transsexualism; HBS; Women Born Transsexual; True Transsexualism.

    It is speaking ever more in harmony with the intersexed. Its message is simple. Your TG experience is your own. We will respect it. In return we ask the same: Simple respect.

    That you recognise Classical (HBS) Transsexualism and Intersex are unique to those of us who live with them.

    They have little to do with cross-gender role behaviours, they are not primarily identity issues. They have been colonised and abused by GLBT – Queer agendas. And they’ve about had enough!

    No-op transsexuals? Five cornered triangles, heterosexual gays – they all have something in common.

    Go figure, Jasper. Go figure.

  6. Jasper Gregory says:

    I did not intentionally imply that Aria wrote the second Quote. I believe that Joanne (next commenter) wrote the second quote.
    I do feel though that you bear a moderator’s responsibility. Joanne seems to be representative for the movement. I wish you would decide on a name so I know how to refer to the movement without being offensive. HBS was my best guess.

  7. Joanne says:

    Hello Jasper 🙂

    No, I most certainly did not write the second quote. I had not seen it before.

    I don’t think you were deliberately offensive. As best I can understand things, your views (and those of Kara) are relatively common among transgender people and I merely wanted to let you know that there is a groundswell of resistance to them in the offing.

    This resistance will not come from a small minority. It has developed organically and has different labels in different jurisdictions.

    It comes from both classical transsexuals and intersexed men and women. It is only now coalescing.

    You will find another example of it Here:

    http://intersex-nz.blogspot.com/2009/08/policing-intersex-glbt-sheriffs-and.html

    Where an article written by myself is on an intersexed website and the comments are from intersexed individuals.

    I’m not a spokesperson for the grounswell. I, along with a number of others, have had a role defining it and articulating its issues. But it is truly organic and its not going away!

    We can all learn to live together Jasper. But only by respecting each others special qualities and beautiful differences. Not by blurring these things under the umbrella of identity politics.

    Kiaora

  8. ariablue says:

    It’s not a movement in the sense that the GLBT is a movement. It’s just a bunch of people who are sick of being misrepresented by those who are not *us*. If people speaking as TG’s would leave us out of it you never would here from us at all.

    I’m not sure about your statement on moderation. It sounds like some kind of accusation when you write it that way, but whatever.

    People need to understand that not everyone sees the world through the same political lens of movements and identity theory. We all come from very different viewpoints, and being labeled as anything, such as an HBS activist for a “movement” that doesn’t exist, is just as offensive to someone like me as being labeled a TG against your will is. Or a Republican, or a Democrat, or…

  9. nome says:

    Just so ya know, this is how I feel about the other post I commented on about this “real transsexual” talk.

  10. SA-ET says:

    “As you might expect, Aria speaks for a VERY small minority of transsexuals.”

    Actually, she speaks for the vast majority…and it has nothing to do with going stealth or feminism at all, and no suffering whatsoever.

  11. SA-ET says:

    You have it exactly righty, Joanne…It is not going away.

  12. nome says:

    Joanne, that is such a gross showing of privilege and entitlement that you get to decide for others what is right for their bodies! Who the fuck died and made you queen of the transsexuals? Why do you get to decide that if I don’t toe YOUR party line, I don’t get to wear a label that I should be able to wear with pride but am forced to hide around the likes of you. Hiding from cisfolk I can understand but the way you think makes me so ill in the head. I’m not even being vicious here, I am telling you flat out how you and people who talk like you affect me.

  13. Joanne says:

    Thanks for your objectivity and logic, Nome. Nobody did any of those things – including myself. I’m not even certain what statement or comment I have made that you are referring to?

    Perhaps were you to show me the citation I could make sense of your comment.

    Was it this: We can all learn to live together Jasper. But only by respecting each others special qualities and beautiful differences. Not by blurring these things under the umbrella of identity politics

    Or perhaps this: It is speaking ever more in harmony with the intersexed. Its message is simple. Your TG experience is your own. We will respect it. In return we ask the same: Simple respect.

    Truth is Nome, I have not once dissed anybody, or their lived experience. I have treated all of you with courtesy and respect.

    Does that disturb you?

  14. sophiaofthescythes says:

    Hello nome.

    I don’t know really, I mean certain transgender? gender politicians in the UK that include people with OBEs and owning high tech companies telling me I am evil because I have 5 alpha and refuse to be like an F to M transsexual guy in order to suit their agenda.

    While having already having managed to strip a lot of people with intersex conditions like me of our legal rights.

    And now I am hearing that when some object to things like this they are “Privileged”. Sorry nome, This privilege argument of yours is not adding up. Seems the other way round to me.

  15. Circé says:

    I am another one of those so-called priviledged transsexual women who abhor being soved under that TG catch all carpet.
    It’s funny ( not haha ) to me that when a woman such as myself who was born a transsexual should be made to feel obliged to share such a term as transgender with people with no commonalities. Just so you know nome, i have never had a problem with knowing my gender, it’s always been quite consistently female, what problem i did have was a deep disgust with my body type and that is a commonality between transsexuals, not politics or gender theories.
    When i read your words, i am glad to know we are truly not the same. I agree with Joanne and Aria and SA-ET so it seems this groundswell is on it’s way 🙂

    Circé

  16. Joanne says:

    Hi Jasper. 🙂

    Just one last comment from me. I suspect that Nome is referring to a citation in your original piece that is rather toxic.

    It is this:

    The TG like all men see the world in terms of heirachy. Essentially they are crossdressers, transvestites who don’t like that label so went looking up the ladder for transsexual, now they think they’ve erased that they have their sights set on intersex. Just watch as Autumn Sandeen leads the charge when he lies about his Kleinfelters test results and the mob follows suit.

    The TG wear these labels like fashion statements. They don’t care who they hurt, like all men they will seek to dominate and take up space, our space. OH no, not a second time, this time we resist.

    You attributed that to me. I did not write that. I pointed out earlier that I had never seen that passage until I found your blog.

    It would help were you to either attribute that correctly, or admit that it was incorrectly attributed.

    Cheers. 🙂

  17. Jasper Gregory says:

    Sorry for the sloppy attribution. I will be more careful in the future. The actual author of the comment is cassandraspeaks.

  18. nome says:

    Sophia, I am not saying that any one of us is privileged. That’s rather my point. The point is that we are all targeted by the system of cis privilege, genderphobia, patriarchy, etc.

    What I mean when I say privilege is that having the privilege to define transgender/transsex to mean only you and not those whom do not fit your criteria, despite how they feel/self-identify. There is a lot of erassure in the community of transsexual genderqueers and that is what I am protesting. I hate this idea that if I’m not shooting T and desperately wanting surgeries then I can’t be transsex. That’s just not how I work, though. So who are you to define me? That is what I mean by privilege. Not that we have privilege in the world outside, since, obvs, we are all targeted in our own ways.

    I don’t want to play oppression olympics. It’s no good. Everyone who comments here is a survivor of transphobia and genderphobia.

  19. ariablue says:

    Some things have a real meaning. Those who came along later and redefined “transsexual” to suit their taste are the ones who are trying to tell us all who we are. They have an agenda to benefit themselves and devil take the hindmost.

    I don’t really care what they want.

  20. cassandraspeaks says:

    Yup! I wrote it and I stand by it or I would not have pushed the submit button.
    I have watched this transgender juggernaut trundle it’s merry way over the lives of transsexuals for 25 years now. To be frank, in the past I have tried talking nicely and in politically correct terms and what happens. I get some clown waving their dick around telling me they are as much a woman as anyone else. If that were just one idiot I could forget it but no it is a whole movement of fruitloops. So forgive me if when I have finished laughing I say what I really think.

  21. nome says:

    But I am also speaking out against what they are doing. I don’t think they/we have any more of a right to define you as you have to define us. Sure, our needs on specific issues may differ but our struggle is still intertwined and we are still of the same. Why can’t transsexuality be expressed in more terms than just the way you specifically feel right for yourself?

    Cassandra, if you don’t see how that statement itself was a transphobic one, that’s just sad. There is so much wrong with defining people based on their genitals.

    A: You’re saying that you have some right to define people’s gender.

    B: You’re basing it on something that takes significant class privilege to achieve. Many people can’t afford surgery/hormones and either embrace that or have to work around it.

    C: You’re ignoring the million ways to express one’s trans-sexuality, just because you don’t recognize it in your narrow view.

  22. cassandraspeaks says:

    Ok. I’ve said this more times than I care to remember but let me lay it out again.
    Transsexuality is a medically accepted term applied to a person who has a brain in contradiction to their genitals. It is applied prior to medical intervention only. The individual is then their target sex.
    I have no issue with someone who is working hard towards surgery. It is a tough thing to do. It’s those who don’t try that make me cross. Either don’t try or make statements like “I’m non op”.
    The very essence of transsexual, the prime defining feature is revulsion of the wrong genitals. Everything else is whatever anyone wants to call it. I don’t give a stuff in a taxidermists workshop but that is what transsexuality is, full stop.
    Now why is that so hard to grasp? If someone is content live out their life physically one sex while socially another I don’t care what you call yourself it’s none of my business. JUST DON”T REFER TO YOURSELF AS TRANSSEXUAL. You’re not.

  23. Jasper Gregory says:

    Cassandra,
    language evolves, many people use the term transsexual differently than you. I personally do not claim to be transsexual. But if you tell someone who identifies as transsexual that they are not, that is a guaranteed blog war. So don’t do it in this forum please.

  24. cassandraspeaks says:

    Jasper, that is the very thing we are trying to defend against. What you are asking is for us to continue to have our identity eroded and disrespected. I accept and respect your autonomy of this your blog. Had we been talking about racial issues and I claimed to be a black woman even though I am white can you imagine the howls of protest from the real black people?
    This is not a simple matter of evolving language this is a matter of what amounts to identity theft, our identity. We are simply asking that it stop. We are defending our identity in the only way open to us.

  25. leigh says:

    Gender queer .. hmmm

    Is that what they are calling themselves today ?

    I’ts been a while. In my day, before the transgender came along they called themselves sissy boys, others called them flamers.

    I have had dealings with this type before. These are the ones that would get right in your face, smug as all get out and insist that they were as female as any woman, and certainly more so than any man that was trying to be a woman.

    These types would laugh in your face, make fun of you to their large gathering of queer men folk, snidely proclaim their sexual prowess over any natal or trans identified woman.

    Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Now the “gender queer” are saying that we are being transphobic, that we are not somehow being sensitive to their needs. I am in tears .. really!

    See, here they come now, all femme’d out and demanding their right to be “as female as any female”, while at the same time admonishing those that deny them the same womanhood.

    The games the same, they simply updated the rules. Yes friend, I have seen the type before, up close and personal, only now they come to rob us of something more, the medical understanding and acceptance gained over years of steady integration with mainstream, an integration they despise and seek to undermine and destroy.

    And they do this with their words, transphobia, bigotry, privledge. Darn, it must really suck to be them eh!

  26. nome says:

    Cassandra, not all of us want to go through the medical system. Why can’t we find other ways to TRANScend/TRANSgress/TRANSition our sex?

  27. sophiaofthescythes says:

    Cis Privilege, Patriarchy, Genderphobia. The language of gender politics. We are all human beings not bits of meat and arbitrary social roles.

    “There is a lot of erassure in the community of transsexual genderqueers and that is what I am protesting. I hate this idea that if I’m not shooting T and desperately wanting surgeries then I can’t be transsex.”

    Funny you should say that, replace a few terms and….

    “There is a lot of erasure in the community of Gender politicians and that is what I am protesting. I hate this idea that if I’m not shooting T and desperately wanting surgeries then I can’t be human.”

    That is exactly what is happening to me and that is enshrined in UK law.

    http://sophiaofthescythes.wordpress.com/2009/08/30/173/

    And I don’t even have a “Male gender identity” or whatever term is in fashion right now.

    “So who are you to define me? That is what I mean by privilege. Not that we have privilege in the world outside, since, obvs, we are all targeted in our own ways.”

    I don’t posess that privilege. nor do I present to exercise it.

    “I don’t want to play oppression olympics.”

    Well in the real Olympics people like me are the subject of a blatant, hate driven witch hunt. All I can do nome is tell you what I am enduring and explaining why I am angry about it, and who wouldn’t be? In the UK this misery is being inflicted on us by people using the names “Transgender” and “Genderqueer” to describe themselves. But I tend to call them “Gender politicians” so as to avoid gross generalization. That is I don’t have an issue with people who are transgender and genderqueer, I have issue with those who use their privilege to define me as things I clearly am not.

  28. nome says:

    Why can’t we exist side-by-side? Why does it have to be such a narrow definition? I respect you and people who feel a need to transition medically. I will defend your right to do so, and do so with the respect and safety deserved, til the day I die. All I am asking is that I also be respected and supported in how I feel necessary to deal with my body and gender issues.

  29. nome says:

    I do not know as much about UK politics as I do about politics here but it sounds semi-similar to stuff I experience here. It’s gross how the gender politicians erase your identity. But erasing mine is not the solution. What I think would be much better is if we banded together, in true solidarity. If we recognized each other as equals and who face many of the same problems, we could fight this stuff rather than bicker over who has the “right” to be in this community.

  30. ariablue says:

    You can do whatever you want. But “transsexual” refers to a birth condition. Why isn’t “transgender” good enough to describe what it was intended to describe, which is people who are physically one sex but want to live as the other? What is the purpose of redefining transsexual?

    One more time… transsexual is a state of being that exists at birth. It is not the process of “gender change” that creates a transsexual person, it is biology. Nouns and verbs are not interchangeable here. Action (wearing clothes) does not equal identity (woman). Process is not a state of being (transition, transgender).

    Transgender is a chosen identity. Transsexual is not.

  31. Joanne says:

    Hello Nome
    To be honest I had decided that I’d had enough of watching and reading this conversation. But I can’t let some of this go by:

    I hate this idea that if I’m not shooting T and desperately wanting surgeries then I can’t be transsex.

    Of course you do, Nome. As desperately as transsexed folk are trying to resolve their somatic dissonance and get on with our lives, is as desperate as you are to be transsexed.

    Do you not see that the only way to resolve the somatic dissonance, if you are female embodied, is by shooting T and working toward surgery? Nome, if you don’t experience the somatic dissonance – then your not transsexed! If you do experience the somatic dissonance all you want is for it to stop!

    Or this:

    You’re ignoring the million ways to express one’s trans-sexuality, just because you don’t recognize it in your narrow view.

    Huh? What on earth does that mean? Who wants to express transsexuality? How would you express it anyway?

    Transsexualism is a fundamental dissonance between the anatomical sex and a sex reversed brain. Its not an expression of anything, unless your talking about ‘expressing’ the need for it to go way.

    There’s no privilege attached to it. If there had been a pill to pop that would have made me instantly male without the conflict, I swear I would have taken it, just to get rid of the nightmare I was living.

    Every time I read this stuff Nome, I feel like I’ve fallen through the looking glass and ended up in wonderland.

    Honestly!

  32. nome says:

    I did not chooose to be anything. Sure, some people may choose to be however but I did not choose at the age of 5 to be whatever-the-fuck-I-am. I am leaving this convo because I am sick of feeling so horrible from it. In this, you’ve erased my identity, denied my existence, tokenized me and any number of other nasty stuffs. I don’t need this when I’m getting enough stuff from the cisfolks around me.

  33. catkisser says:

    All I am hearing is “we respect your identity so why won’t you respect our right to take it over, redefine the medical condition you were born with so we can appropriate it?”

    Excuse me? How many times do those of us born either intersexed or transsexed have to explain this? We have a medical condition, a natal birth medical condition. It is not an identity, political movement, statement of gender. a medical condition, full stop, period

    No, you do not get to redefine it, no, you do not have the right to put us under some political “umbrella” or force us into a political grouping.

    That is exercising privilege, not our defense of our own right to be ourselves, speak for ourselves with our own voices.

    Transgender works just great for all you non intersexed, non transsexed people, we want nothing to do with it, never did, have been objecting as loudly as we could for 15 or more years to you doing this violence to us. Stop it.

    For more than a decade I tried to get the “gender communities” to simply start using transgender AND transsexual in order to allow some respect of differences. I have been called every name in the book, had out and out terrorist tactics used on me and my voice silenced in almost every single trans venue for my troubles. Well now others have also said enough of this garbage and are speaking out….and we will be heard. You transgenders had your chance for doing this respectfully and responded with abuse. Time to take the gloves off now.

  34. sophiaofthescythes says:

    Hello Nome

    Well you can stop doing this for starters:

    “I do not know as much about UK politics as I do about politics here but it sounds semi-similar to stuff I experience here. It’s gross how the gender politicians erase your identity. But erasing mine is not the solution.”

    I must have said probably three or four times I am not defiing you or erasing you and also said I don’t have the right to either. But you still respond as if I am and as if I never said “I am not defining you or erasing you and I don’t have the right to”.

  35. Circé says:

    Hi catkisser 🙂

    Back a few years ago, i helped create an organization in Canada called Transexual Fights for Rights and tried lobbying such well seen LG groups as Egale Canada and others to do exacly that, use Transsexual and Transgender with using the T but instead they came up with this brilliantly erasing use of ” gender expression ” and ” gender identity ” in their statements and sadly it caught on everywhere.

    I was shouted down and called elitist and exclusionist, backwards and worse just because i wanted to not be thrown in under the same catch-all term as people i have little to nothing in common.

    I have since stayed away from things LGBT even if i am a lesbian. Being lesbian, i have come to realize doesn’t mean i have to tow the party line of co-opting and oppression of others just to suit a political agenda.

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